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Why I Shouldn’t Be Allowed to Correct The Internet

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Feb. 9th, 2013 | 08:38 pm

Facebook Status posted by a longtime acquaintance:

Top 5 lies women use to avoid seeming superficial;
5- we're such good friends, I'd hate to ruin it by dating!
4- I never knew you liked me that way
3- I dont have time to date anyone*
2- im not ready to date anyone*
1- I don't deserve a guy like you, I'd only hurt you

*- only bs because a week or 2 later, they are dating someone

Special shout out to, "... im a lesbian!"



I comment:
I'd call these, in the right circumstances, Top Five Reasons Women Give to Avoid Hurting Men They Care For But Are Not Sexually Attracted To.

Friend:
Allison, you're right. . Because in our society attraction trumps everything!.

Me:
Ummm...because people should agree to date/have sex/spend their lives with people they aren't attracted to? Because....?

There's a thing called Nice Guy Syndrome. Basically, it boils down to " "Why isn't a woman a machine into which I can put kindness coins until sex falls out?" It's feeling of entitlement, where a guy thinks that because he's "nice", women should have sex with him, and if they don't, they're either bitches or they have bad judgment because they pick another guy who isn't "nice" like the guy doing the complaining.

I love you dearly, M-----, and I've known you for years. You are a sweet, nice, lovely human being, and I know you've had challenges with finding someone you really click with. But it might help to look at the sayings above as what they all translate to, which is "I don't want to date the person I'm addressing this sentence to, and I don't want to hurt their feelings." It doesn't make a woman "superficial" because she doesn't want to date a person who wants to date her, and it can feel childish or misogynist for the person asking her out to characterize a polite refusal as a character failing.

Any human being, male or female, is entitled to their preferences, desires and attractions. Some girls only want to date black men. Some men only want to date girls with big breasts. Some people will turn down someone for bad grammar in an email (me! me!). Are these reasons shallow? Sure. Are they overlooking the complete picture of every person's unique humanity? Sure. But we don't, as a species, make our decisions based on a complete picture of humanity. We all have our own preferences, some of them more logical than others, and it doesn't make us bad people to go with what we want.

Friend:
Your last paragraph is exactly what I'm referencing. The ones who complain, male or female, " all I want is a good/nice/honest/loving/funny/or even grammatically correct girl/guy" = I say that, but really as long as im attracted to them, thats the real inportant part, the other stuff is a cherry on top.

Btw, while yes, ive heard these all, well mostly all, in the past... the assumption that ive been spurned and thus wrote my comment is false!

Me:
Glad to hear it

Friend:
And for the record:
[inserts dictionary definition of “superficial”]

All the reasonings you've both given, mainly attraction, falls into one of the definitions of the word I used to originally describe. So it's less about me being a misogynist, and more about you not liking the word. Furthormore, I agreed that attraction is paramount in this society, doesn't make it right, doesn't make me bad for wishing people wouldn't do it. especially when they claim to be longing for sonething deeper

Me:
This sounds an awful lot like "People who make choices I don't approve of are bad people." and perilously close to "Women who don't pick me are bitches."

Why isn't choosing someone based on attraction right? Are you advocating we return to marriage as the uniting of two families that own adjoining land?

Friend:
No, not at all, on both messages! Im not going to say anyone is a bad person for making a choice, they could, however, make bad choices if the only guiding factors are how soneone looks.

My approval has no merrit in the equation.

I'm a little troubled here by you, on a couple occassions now, trying to take what I have actually said, and translate it into a new, far more demonstrative, "women are bitches" definition by saying what it sounds like.

What it sounds like is what I wrote.. if I had wanted to actually be a misogynistic asshat, I would have originally wrote " top 5 lies bitches say when they think they have a right to choose who they put out to "

So, to clarify, I do not hate women, nor do I feel like I am entitled to anything by being nice to them. Im nice to women, or men, because I try to be a nice person. Its not because I hope to gain anything more then a little repriosity of the same niceness.

Girl He Knows:
Yea this isn't women being "superficial" it's us trying not to hurt anyone's feelings.

Friend:
By lying?

Girl He Knows:
A white lie sure. You're telling me you would rather a girl just be like "um, no I don't want to date you" ? If that's the case then I will keep that in mind. However, that's just going to make things awkward... In my opinion.

Friend:
Yes, I.. and maybe I'm in the minority, would prefer the truth up front, rather then a veiled excuse that gets exposed a short time later.

Personally I hold someone who is honest above all else. And the quick tearing of the bandaid always hurts less tg theen the prolonged bit by bit removal

Me:
I respect your preference that you would rather hear, "I don't want to date you," than a polite excuse. But you undermine your point when you characterize polite excuses as "lies" told to hide a character flaw, and when you attribute those lies and flaws to "women" as a group. In the past, some men have not responded well when I've said "I don't want to date you." As a woman, I avoid unpleasant scenes, lost friendships, and sometimes the threat of physical harm by being kind instead of saying bluntly that I'm not attracted to someone.

Friend:
You realize that you are trivializing the points for your argument with words like polite or little lies told to protect feelings, while going to the far ends of the opposing spectrum to demonize mine, right? Even bringing abuse and fear into reasons to not be forthcoming.

In this thread weve established that women lie, whether it white, Little, polite, curteous, what ever inference you'd like to modify it with.

We've established this is because essentially they eat with their eyes, ie attraction dominates interest.

So nothing in my original post is either derogatory, or untrue.

I could easily reverse this and say the same thing about men, and neither of our points would be discredited. To some degree they'd probably be intensified.

Personally I do not think there is a reason to lie to someone regarding this, not only does it reflect bad on the liar, but it may also give the person interested false hope, thinking oh theyre not ready, thats what is stopping them, so ill hang around hoping til they are..

Its much more humane to just say.."no, im flattered, but im not interested in you that way" then any mind shit is on them, not on you.

I surely cant be alone on this.

Me:
So basically, if a woman is not interested in you, she's only allowed to say so in the way you prescribe. If she indicates her disinterest in a way that is not your choice of how she should do it, she's a liar and a fake. Glad we got that cleared up.

Friend:
Wow, thats really what you're taking from my statements?

Shes "allowed" to say anything however she pleases! But if she chooses to lie through it, yes, that makes her, by definition, a liar!

Why is that a complicated understanding to grasp? If someone lies, they are being a liar. Pretty black and white there, is it not?

When did I say fake? Again you're adding your own narrative to my statements to further fuel your fire on this subject.

Footnote, my preferences are simply that what I would prefer. . And certainly how I personally would handle myself, anyone else has freewill to do whatever they want.

Does lying under the guise of protecting someone make you a bad person, not me to determine. But they are still lies, back to my original statement

Me:
When you characterize women as "superficial" or "liars" for not telling you they don't want to date you in exactly the way you want to hear it, you're coming off as a controlling, misogynistic asshole. And that's to someone who knows you personally and loves you dearly (me). How do you think it comes across to women who don't know you?

I'm sure you have a lot of complex feelings about this subject, and yes, you'd certainly prefer to have women talk to you in exactly the way you prescribe. But describing them as liars because they don't toe the line for how it's acceptable to talk to you isn't the most pro-woman position you could take.

So far, you've called women "liars" and "superficial." As a group. You've mansplained to me with your definition of "superficial" (I have a masters in writing, which you may not know, but I think you know I'm not stupid, so it comes across as deliberately patronizing). Two other women have weighed in on this thread to agree that it's self-protective as well as polite--plain old ordinary politeness--to not say to someone's face, "I don't want to date you." And you clearly understand that all five things you list above actually MEAN "I don't want to date you," so at this point you are saying, "Even though I know what you mean, if you don't say it the way I want you to say it, you're a superficial liar."

I'm sorry you come into contact with so many liars, and I hope you never have to politely eat a meal you don't care for, do business with a client whose politics repulse you, or reassure a loved one they look just fine when there isn't time to go home and change. Good luck with that.



I know--I KNOW--that this guy is a lovely person who has a lot of marks against him in the dating game, and is probably pretty frustrated. Clearly, I am a little overtired...

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Comments {23}

whipchick

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from: whipchick
date: Feb. 10th, 2013 02:47 am (UTC)
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I totally thought of you as I was having the whole discussion!

Also, I am in Florida now - when's a good time to hang out? I can do time with kids or adult time!

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notodette

(no subject)

from: notodette
date: Feb. 10th, 2013 03:15 am (UTC)
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Can you make it to me? How long are you here? Do you like kids because I have like...KIDS. If so, they have Friday off of school so that would be good, if not, Tuesday or Thursday in the afternoon!

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whipchick

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from: whipchick
date: Feb. 10th, 2013 03:19 am (UTC)
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Yes I can make it to you. I'm here until the end of March, so no need to be all NOW NOW :) I don't love kids, but they seem to like me OK :)

Give me a day to sort out whether I'm going up to Lakeland this week, and then let's pick either this week or next week - whee!

A

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notodette

(no subject)

from: notodette
date: Feb. 10th, 2013 05:04 am (UTC)
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Oh, that's amazing then. Take your time! I'll try to sell the kids off before we set a date so they don't cause any shit.

You're welcome to come chill with me, go through preschool pick up and stay for dinner, too. Though I'd probably have to find a better story for Carlos than "This is my friend Allison who beat me in an internet writing competition that I never told you about who works with the circus and just visited south africa."

Actually, maybe that would do.

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